-- Start: Sunday, July 3, 1994 12:12:46 pm DUtime (EDT)

Marcus turns Recorder on.
Marcus opens the door to GNA C++ Class. . .
rodrigc says:
There is a door to GNA C++ Class? Neato
DanielP [to mar]:
Do you know who is coming?
Marcus says:
Nope.
Marcus [to rodrigc]:
the door lets us have undisturbed meetings...
laurap reads a notice on Bulletin Board.
Marcus [to rodrigc]:
you didnt notice it b/c youre registered (-> @status)
rodrigc [to Marcus]:
What are you going to be discussing today in this meeting?
Jade_Guest arrives from nowhere.
Marcus says:
The consultants have a mail from DanielP which collects some interesting items.
..in particular, Dan is the first present consultant who has let me know that
...a) he will be with a followup to this course, and b) who seems ready to want to do work on the textbook - and maybe use it in RL.
Now, I think I need to look for someone else to coordinate this work since I will not be available for the next 2-3 months, really, and also wont be able to use the C++ course in the context Daniel can (as a real teacher).
...and I am an amateur anyway :)
TinaP arrives from nowhere.
Marcus says:
PeterMR has a similar opinion, I think.
TinaP says:
Hi, sorry I'm late
laurap [to Marcus]:
that you're an amateur? :-)
Marcus says:
The two of us will turn to new shores, so to speak, closer to our real fields... with VSNS.
(DanielP thinks: both my rl course starts only in september )
Marcus [to TinaP]:
hehe. He thinks of himself as a C++ amateur, too. we're autodidacts.
(Marcus thinks: VSNS is another GNA school for the natural sciences. )
(DanielP thinks: both <- but )
Marcus says:
Also, I have this vague plan to also bring 'Literate Programming' as a course on the net - next year, but planning has to start soon.
Marcus agrees with Dan's design critique about the C++ course.
rodrigc says:
Which projects are currently the most active right now?
Marcus [to rodrigc]:
the future of the projects is another issue to be discussed, indeed.
Jade_Guest has disconnected.
Assistants of the local psychology institute arrive to cart Jade_Guest off to their dream-research labs.
laurap [to TinaP]:
hi -- nice survey
TinaP [to laurap]:
thanks!
Marcus [to laurap]:
I cannot access http://www.super.unam.mx/maillists/gna-cpp-cgi-project.index.html
or rather, it's an empty page.
Marcus sighs. same for the matrix project.
laurap [to Marcus]:
I don't know what's going on with the listserv, but there are no interesting messages on the cgi list anyway.
Marcus says:
Anyways, the String project beats them all, then probably the matrix project which slowly gets started, then the cgi thingy.
..and i didnt hear about a list for the GUI project.
...Traven's is also active.
rodrigc [to Marcus]:
Who is active in the matrix project? Kandy and I seem to be the only ones participating in it right now.
Marcus says:
..but there doesnt seem to be a list.
(DanielP thinks: I haven't connect to my "base" machine it is down for the past few days so I haven't read any mail since last thursday )
Marcus [to rodrigc]:
I simply havent had the time to do anything for it yet. I asked Bill who was interested to followup.
Marcus smiles Dan. Nice excuse :)
DanielP [to Marcus]:
Nice and real!
Marcus says:
further, the string project pioneers collaboration with a company (Borland),
...and for all projects, we're in contact with the FSF whether anyone is interested there.
(laurap thinks: the strange return address on Daniel's last mail was a nice touch :-) )
Marcus nods Laura..
Marcus [to DanielP]:
shold I change your email to the new one?
Marcus says:
Another thing (no 3?): tina sent us the feedback proposal, and
Jims arrives from nowhere.
Marcus says:
..I have suggested to ask for help from the GNA Webteam (now in FORMS)
..to make her survey a mailable Web-Form.
DanielP [to mar]:
Not for the immediat future, I will cam.org for the next month or so
TinaP says:
I don't know much about web-form can you tell me?
Diego arrives from nowhere.
Marcus says:
..but I still have to ask them (next week). I am sure someone will want to do it, so end of the week this could start.
Diego suddenly disappears.
laurap [to Marcus]:
my survey programs till exists...
Diego arrives from nowhere.
(laurap thinks: programs till -> program still )
Marcus [to laurap]:
...so *you* are the volunteer :)
laurap [to Marcus]:
but I still don't have a server.
Marcus [to laurap]:
you'd have the choice among 3 GNA servers now (plexus,ncsa,cern all up and running)
laurap [to Marcus]:
I know it works with ncsa -- the program also requires g++ libs...
Diego [to Marcus]:
Marcus, did you say you can't access some pages on www.super?
Marcus [to Diego]:
that;s right.
Diego [to Marcus]:
Why hadn't you told me about that? (or had you?)
laurap [to TinaP]:
is it just forms you're unfamiliar with or the web in general?
Marcus [to Diego]:
no, it's wrong, works now!
Marcus bows Diego, HyperMaster.
Diego smiles at Marcus.
Marcus says:
ok. Except this feedback thing, I cannot thing of coordinating other stuff now. Altogether, the following things must get started July or after:
Diego laughs.
(Diego thinks: HyperMaster... wow! )
TinaP [to laurap]:
what I want to know is if the students have to access the forms or if it is directly mailed to them via e-mail
laurap [to TinaP]:
if we did this using forms, they'd have to access the forms via a www client like Mosaic or lynx
presumably what we'd mail them would be the url to find the form that they'd then fill out.
TinaP [to laurap]:
that's what I was afraid of... I personally think that this eval should be kept personal via email. Many won't go through the trouble of accessing just to evaluate. Sometimes you have to make it easy for them.
especially students who are busy or who have not followed the course too closely
Diego says:
At the mailing list group we're now working on a standarized form-description "metalanguage" that will allow the creation of forms both for WWW and hand-filled. Maybe you could use that!
TinaP says:
what is hand-filled?
laurap [to TinaP]:
a form might be easy for active students, if we had a link to it on a page they were likely to be looking at anyway -- but you're right about the people who aren't following the course.
Diego [to TinaP]:
I mean, a form that is now in the Web, but is a text message that the user send via email to some server for processing.
TinaP says:
Personally I more apt to answer email rather than access a form
Marcus thinks that for the special case of the C++ course there should not be a problem: you wont follow this course if you dont acces
>> Network buffer overflow: 104 lines of output to you have been lost <<
Jims [to DanielP]:
Agree, but my comment is dragging us from the topic at hand. Perhaps later.
rodrigc says:
I found that the MOO is pretty intimidating for newcomers.
Marcus says:
on ther other hand: we're working on that one. esp. the link WWW/MOO to make it be more fun to be here.
TinaP says:
hehe learning contracts might help with more personal and people would be less afraid to ask questions about the moo
Diego says:
I have to go now. See you later, everyone!
Diego waves.
TinaP waves.
laurap waves
Diego suddenly disappears.
TinaP says:
may not be afraid to ask "dumb" questions
Jims [to TinaP]:
"I'm still not sure what is meant by a learning contract. Can you give me a Reader's Digest condensed version?
DanielP [to mar]:
Who is the working on WWW/MOO link (group, ppl?)
TinaP says:
I can give you a workshop on it at 2PM in the GNA cafe
Jims [to TinaP]:
Excellent.
TinaP says:
nore like one to one work
more
laurap [to TinaP]:
do you mean the learning contract is more like 1-1 work or the moo is?
TinaP [to rodrigc]:
2PM EDT
TinaP says:
learning contract
Marcus [to DanielP]:
it's a group of people whom I know who are *interested*, like me,PMR,Colman (expert),KellyS ...I have to try to find a coordinator for that group. there are many exp. projects and it's time to get a good overview.
Marcus [to Jims]:
there is a workshop on this after this meeting...
laurap [to Jims]:
There's a sample learning contract (I think Tina wrote this) at http://info.desy.de/pub/uu-gna/html/cc/adm/contract.html
Jims nods.
Jims [to laurap]:
Thanks.
TinaP bows and acknowledges authorship
Marcus [to DanielP]:
It'll be announced to gna-curriculum (are you on it) when theres a maillist for discussion. unless *you* want to coordinate it... :)
Marcus says:
We seem to have gotten through with the survey for now, have we?
TinaP says:
if so then let me summerize?
laurap says:
I have one very picky comment aboutg the survey intro...
TinaP says:
sure
Marcus says:
About the form of sending: i proposed forms mainly to have a real, simple application. I think tina is right: make Email standard, but try to make it a form as well (not more work for you or any of us).
Marcus listens to Laura.
laurap says:
It says something like "so more people can get even more out of future courses" -- I think the "even more" might seem a little jarring to someone who's basically dissatisfied with this course.
Marcus [to laurap]:
it hurts, but you could be right :(
Marcus smiles
TinaP says:
I had trouble looking for the right wording on that one. what do you suggest
(laurap thinks: I was afraid you'd ask me that... )
TinaP laughs.
TinaP says:
ok give me a sec
DanielP has disconnected.
Marcus thinks Dan's son must have hit the *wrong* key :)
TinaP says:
ok hows this.....
We are trying to make the C++ course better so that people can get more out of this type of learning experience.
DanielP has connected.
laurap [to TinaP]:
I like that.
TinaP says:
are we agreed?
Marcus nods.
Marcus thinks he'll let Tina write admin documents next time :)
TinaP hides in the corner
Jims says:
Do we want to say people can get more from it or that we can do it better? ...
laurap laughs
Jims says:
try to place the blame, if any, on us and not them.
Marcus [to Jims]:
both :)
(Marcus thinks: blame me, rather. )
Marcus sighs.
Marcus lights a virtual cigarette...
..Thick clouds of smoke are slowly drifting through the room.
TinaP says:
i don't think it places blame, do you?
Jims says:
No, I mean, if we say 'we want to make it better' it's better than 'if you didn't perform well' understand my meaning?
rodrigc puts on a gas mask
TinaP says:
ok I say We are trying to make it better
rodrigc says:
How about substituing 'improve' for make it better?
Jims says:
I was thinking something like: In order for us to improve the course we need your help by answering the following questions:
TinaP says:
I don't want to be repetitive but I've changed make it better to improve
I do say that feedback is greatly appreciated
(Jims thinks: I'm not expressing myself well today. Apologies. )
TinaP [to Jims]:
I never do!
Jims smiles.
TinaP giggles.
Marcus considers stripping JimS off his consultants privileges... :) :)
Marcus chortles.
Jims says:
Can we see what you have now, Tina, and go from there?
Marcus nods and listens.
TinaP says:
ok
wait, let me go get the other changes, I'll be right back.
laurap [to Marcus]:
what is this www/moo thing? I gather it's something more involved than putting a telnet url on a www page...
rodrigc says:
Gotta run. Bye
rodrigc has disconnected.
Marcus [to laurap]:
yes, our/my interest stems from the fact that we wouldnt know at present how to have a good MATH or PHYSICS course on a MOO...how to import the material...create a smart GUI...
colman has written an *excellent* review on the problems: in the GNA paper, sect.4
Jims reads a notice on Bulletin Board.
Marcus [to laurap]:
http://uu-gna.mit.edu:8001/uu-gna/papers/www/mud.html
Marcus smiles.
Jims reads a notice on Bulletin Board.
laurap [to Marcus]:
okay, I'll look at it later...
Marcus announces chapter 7 received and to be announced tomorrow, probably.
Marcus nods.
Jims reads a notice on Bulletin Board.
TinaP says:
ok I'm back
ready?
laurap nods
TinaP says:
first paragraph Hi my name is Tina.....
DanielP says:
What do we do about the MI - templates switch?
TinaP says:
second sentence I am an adult educator and my interests are in developing effective courses for MOO environments
2nd paragraph
last sentence
(Jims thinks: Tina needs Marcus's smart moo client. )
TinaP says:
Your feedback would be greatly appreciated by the consultants and myself.
ok?
Jims nods.
TinaP says:
first question
after question: could you please elaborate?
Assistants of the local psychology institute arrive to cart rodrigc off to their dream-research labs.
DanielP says:
Is this going to be mailed to you ?
TinaP says:
2nd question: after question If you didn't have much contact with the consultants, could you tell me why?
(DanielP thinks: you = Tina )
TinaP will make changes and mail to everyone before releasing
Marcus [to TinaP]:
could you send gna-c++-consultants an updated version after today?
Marcus says:
ok.
TinaP says:
question 3 remains the same
as well as 4
and 5
6: If you did not participate in the course, what could have been done to increase your interest in the course?
7: What type of changes can be made in the course presentation that would make this course better for you?
how's that?
laurap says:
about question 6 -- I think we're assuming now that if someone didn't participate, it was because they weren't interested. But there may have been other reasons...
Jims says:
Are 6 and 7 close enough we could combine them into 1 or make #6 Did you participate? and then leave #7 as is?
laurap says:
also, what about people who participated but not as much as they might have liked/expected to/whatever
TinaP says:
ok...
DanielP has disconnected.
laurap says:
if someone worked through the textbook but didn't post to the listserv or visit the moo, did that person participate or not?
TinaP says:
as part of ques 6: were there any other barriers that inhibited your participation?
laurap [to TinaP]:
that's good.
Marcus [to laurap]:
he/she did, since the cousre is self-paced. then we wanna know only WHY he/she didnt participate *more* :)
laurap says:
yes -- I think we should talk more about the *amount* of participation than about participating/not participating.
Jims says:
Idea: 6. Your level of participation was much, moderate, slight, or none? Was it what you expected? If not why not? 7. What oculd be done to make this course better for you?
DanielP has connected.
TinaP says:
we do level of participation in ques 2
Jims says:
no, 2 was interact with consultants.
TinaP says:
but in addition to quest 1 we could say was it what you expected
laurap says:
perhaps question 2 could be expanded to other forms of participation...
TinaP says:
you mean those that just did the text?
Jims says:
My interpretation of participate would be mailing list, reading the hypertext, and consultant interaction... which is something we should get a feel for.
laurap says:
I mean it's possible that some people (maybe those on Jim's string project) interacted more with other students than with consultants.
TinaP says:
how about changing 2
(Jims thinks: Moo participation is optional, probably not appropriate for the questionaire. )
Jims [to laurap]:
That's right. Some of them are talking to each other more than the list or me.
TinaP says:
possible: ques 2: did you interact with the consultants, other students, mailing list, text....
then if you didn't have much contact, could you tell me why?
laurap says:
or maybe "how much did you interact..."
TinaP says:
ok how much interact with consultants, other students....
Jims says:
I'd like to see them as separate questions but agree with the general form of the new #2.
(laurap thinks: if we have too many questions, fewer people will answer the survey )
Jims smiles "Yeah, that's it, Tina! Much better!
TinaP says:
it would be nice to seperate, but this will give you a general feel for what we are looking for and then next time you can be more specific
keep it short and sweet!
Marcus [to TinaP]:
How did you think to evaluate the answers?
TinaP says:
qualitatively
Marcus [to TinaP]:
this means summarizing, not in tabular format?
Jims [to TinaP]:
If you word it properly they will offer amounts of interaction with each on only one question. I like your idea of "how much did you interact with consultants? other students? the book... that kind of question.
BrettK arrives from the Astral plane.
BrettK waves.
laurap waves brettk
TinaP says:
right summarizing
Marcus nods.
Marcus [to TinaP]:
the results are confidential, that is you will keep them locked?
Marcus wonders whether this is necessary - or even a good idea.
TinaP says:
quantitativly sometimes losses something in the interpretation
Jims [to Marcus]:
confidentiality increases response.
Marcus says:
We have had several surveys, and this is by far the most important/best prepared, though...
Marcus [to Jims]:
that's right.
TinaP says:
once I have jotted down their answers I will delete their email response
TinaP blushes
Marcus says:
I mean that it may take a time until another course reaches this stage and the material has importance beyond the particular instance..
Marcus wonders whether we can trust you, Tina :) :)
Marcus thinks of a report on how polls are normally faked by the interviewers.
TinaP says:
done a lot of research in the field and have been trusted so far!!!
(Jims thinks: But we trust Marcus... hmmm. )
DanielP says:
I would like to see them, in details if needed, maybe "making them anonymous" would suffice
Marcus nods - kidding.
TinaP says:
I know,
Marcus agrees with Dan
Marcus [to Jims]:
do you really - it should be necessary :)
TinaP says:
sometimes people's english or form of writing can give them away, but don't worry I use lots of quotes
Jims laughs.
TinaP says:
are you comfortable with that?
Jims [to TinaP]:
"If form can give a person away, is it good to use quotes or would paraphrasing be better?
DanielP sits down at Teacher's Desk. . .
TinaP says:
out of context quotes work well
Jims says:
Accepted.
Mogat crawls from behind a potted plant.
laurap says:
I think we need to keep this in perspective -- we're asking how they felt about a C++ class, not to disclose intimate details of their personal lives...
TinaP says:
right
laurap [to TinaP]:
although if you get an answer like "I couldn't participate in this class because I was busy spending all my time on <some depraved activity> ..."
TinaP says:
I'll just report the facts, just the facts
interspaced with quotes
Marcus [to TinaP]:
allright. I hope this can become a template feedback form for GNA courses.
TinaP says:
it will be in something like a case study format only not so elaborate
Marcus [to TinaP]:
...and coffee spots ;)
Marcus coughs.
TinaP says:
tea spots also!
Jims says:
And coke can rings!
(laurap thinks: Marcus should stop smoking )
Marcus says:
ok. do you think we're through with that?
TinaP says:
one thing
Marcus thinks laura should <deleted> :)
(Marcus thinks: self-censoring MOO :) )
laurap laughs
TinaP says:
list for me all the things that people can participate in
Jims says:
Moo, Web, mailing list, projects on the side (include this?) ...
I think that's it."
Marcus [to TinaP]:
ok....wait
including work ON the course material ?
laurap says:
yes -- projects in the course and outside it...
Marcus notes that about 30% of the students (not coinciding with course activity) have contributed significantly to the www material.
Marcus says:
...where the question of how the projectts get integrated has not been discussed sufficiently.
Jims [to Marcus]:
but isn't web contributions part of the acceptable tuition payments?
Mogat smiles
Marcus says:
..It is correct to say that they originated in the course at the moment, and that so far only people from the course work on them.
laurap says:
what about outside reading? Does that count as participation?
(DanielP thinks: any contributions is acceptable )
Marcus [to Jims]:
oh - yes :)
Marcus waves Mogat.
Mogat bows to Marcus
TinaP says:
ok is that all?
then here is the list
Jims says:
Did you get the 'homework' from the hypertext modules?
TinaP says:
interaction on the MOO, WWW material, mailing list, projects in the course and outside of the course, work on course material, with consultants, on text and outside readings.
and homework
(Jims thinks: Wow, what a mouthfull! )
BrettK has disconnected.
DanielP laffs
laurap [to TinaP]:
how is "with consultants" different from "on the MOO" and "mailing list"?
Marcus [to laurap]:
the first is a union of the latter two.
TinaP says:
moo could be participation with other students?
Marcus smiles. class consultant{ //... }; anyone?
Marcus laffs.
Jims [to laurap]:
And for example I talk a lot with PeterMR in email which would be that category.
laurap says:
okay, never mind...
TinaP says:
I'll say moo with participation of consults and other students?
isn't mailing list, email?
laurap [to TinaP]:
he means private mail
Jims says:
No, private email.
Mogat [to TinaP]:
Those are two different things...
Marcus [to TinaP]:
it's special in so far the course lists are hypermailed.
...fully archived as part of the WWW material.
Mogat [to TinaP]:
A mailing list is a one-way receiving of e-mail, and 'e-mail' suggests a two-way conversation over e-mail. Yes?
Jims [to Marcus]:
"and the mail list goes to everyone, private email goes only to one.
TinaP says:
ok how bout if I put in the list and you can comment on it in case I leave anything out or put too much in before release?
Jims agrees.
Mogat [to TinaP]:
You'd best keep the last word for yourself. Never know what might surface.
TinaP says:
true!
what release date would you like?
Jims says:
Remembering tmrw is a holiday here in the States.
Assistants of the local psychology institute arrive to cart BrettK off to their dream-research labs.
Mogat sniffs cooking potatoes for p. salad.
TinaP says:
are you meeting next week?
Marcus [to TinaP]:
I wont be able to attend next week.
DanielP [to mar]:
How is the chap on templates going?
TinaP says:
ok when then?
Marcus [to TinaP]:
but in any case, this form is rather for later..
Marcus [to DanielP]:
waiting for Grisha to send the draft of the chapter to the
TinaP says:
huh?
Marcus says:
consultants.
Jims says:
Release on Monday the 11(?)th ??
Marcus is on phone - brb
DanielP [to marc]:
Did he promise any deadline?
(laurap thinks: what's "brb"? )
TinaP says:
8/11 will give you enough time to get back to me with comments?
TinaP [to laurap]:
means be right back
laurap [to TinaP]:
8/11 or 7/11?
Jims laughs "8/11. I'd hope so. How about 7/11!
TinaP says:
sorry 7/11
Jims smiles
TinaP says:
agreed?
Jims nods.
Marcus says:
I am not sure.
(Marcus thinks: still on phone... )
(Jims thinks: Leave it to Marcus! :) :) )
Marcus says:
Ok, go ofr it.
TinaP says:
ok I need five minutes to clear my brain, it smoking!!!! see you folks in the GNA cafe in 5 mins?
laurap [to TinaP]:
see ya
Jims [to TinaP]:
"Ok. bye.
TinaP waves.
Mogat Noes
TinaP suddenly disappears.
Mogat meant nods
Mogat goes home.
Marcus [to DanielP]:
deadline:
Jims reads a notice on Bulletin Board.
Marcus [to DanielP]:
received mail on June 27 saying he'd deliver a draft in a week
(DanielP thinks: looks good )
Marcus says:
so, i'll remind him on monday if i dont get anything we have to come up with something fast.
Jims reads a notice on Bulletin Board.
Marcus says:
...we may need a quick-action team...